Mindhunter : Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit

  Author:    John E. Douglas, Mark Olshaker, John Douglas
  ISBN:    0671528904
  Sales Rank:    36186
  Published:    1996-08-01
  Publisher:    Pocket
  # Pages:    416
  Binding:    Paperback
  Avg. Rating:    4.0 based on 174 reviews
  Used Offers:    218 from $2.95
  Amazon Price:    $7.99
  (Data above last updated:  2008-08-14 09:43:23 EST)
  
  
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Mindhunter : Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit
  
During his twenty-five year career with the Investigative Support Unit, Special Agent John Douglas becamea legendary figure in law enforcement, pursuing some of the most notorious and sadistic serial killers ofour time: the man who hunted prostitutes for sport in the woods of Alaska, the Atlanta child murderer, andSeattle's Green River killer, the case that nearly cost Douglas his life.

As the model for Jack Crawford in The Silence of the Lambs, Douglas has confronted, interviewed,and studied scores of serial killers and assassins, including Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, and Ed Gein, whodressed himself in his victims' peeled skin. Using his uncanny ability to become both predator and prey,Douglas examines each crime scene, reliving both the killer's and the victim's actions in his mind, creatingtheir profiles, describing their habits, and predicting their next moves.

Now, in chilling detail, the legendary Mindhunter takes us behind the scenes of some of his most gruesome,fascinating, and challenging cases -- and into the darkest recesses of our worst nightmares.

Mindhunter enters the minds of some of the country's most notorious serial killers to tell the real-life story of the Investigative Support Unit (ISU) -- the FBI's special force that has assisted state and local police in cracking some of the country's most celebrated serial murder and rape cases. The unit specializes in understanding the chemistry and mechanical workings of the brain's of these serial criminals, and did its homework by interviewing such murderers as Charles Manson and David Berkowitz (the Son of Sam). John Douglas, who worked for the FBI for 25 years, is an authority on the unit, and his book combines the best of nonfiction with that of a murder mystery.
Far removed from the light of the sun, in basement offices sixty feet below ground at the National Academy of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Quantico, Virginia, a small and elite group confronts one of our deepest and most primal fears: the fear of evil lurking among us. They are known as the Investigative Support Unit and their leader is John Douglas. He has hunted some of the most notorious and sadistic criminals of our time: the Trailside Killer in San Francisco, the Atlanta child murderer, the Tylenol poisoner, the man who hunted prostitutes for sport in the woods of Alaska, and Seattle's Green River killer, the case that nearly ended his own life. He has confronted, interviewed, and studied dozens of serial killers and assassins - including Charles Manson, Sirhan Sirhan, Richard Speck, John Wayne Gacy, Son of Sam (David Berkowitz), and James Earl Ray - for a landmark study, to understand their motives and motivation. To get inside their minds. He is able to become both predator and prey. He examines a crime scene and creates profiles of the perpetrators, describing their habits and predicting their next moves. Ultimately, when his work has helped snare the criminals, he can help build strategy for interrogating and prosecuting them. He is Special Agent John Douglas, a legendary figure in law enforcement and the model from which Jack Crawford was drawn for Thomas Harris's thriller, The Silence of the Lambs. As chief of the team that tackles the most baffling and senseless of unsolved violent crimes, John Douglas is the man who ushered in a new age in behavioral science and criminal profiling. Now, after twenty-five years of service, John Douglas has just retired and canfinally tell his unique and compelling story.
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04-17-08 3 1\1
(Hide Review...)  good book but his second book is much better
Reviewer Permalink
this book is very similiar to many of his books. This book discusses much of his life. His second book is much better if you are interested in true profiling.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2008-08-14 09:45:36 EST)
02-16-08 5 (NA)
(Hide Review...)  Good read
Reviewer Permalink
this is well written, and worth your time to read.
gives you insight about the reasons why men do
such wicked things.
It's good to know the FBI has figured these guys out, and
are able to track them down more easily.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2008-04-17 17:08:07 EST)
01-04-08 5 (NA)
(Hide Review...)  Analyzing Criminal Behavior
Reviewer Permalink
Mark Olshaker has written a very readable, entertaining, and educational book on the life and career of Special Agent John Douglas of the FBI. Douglas was one of the leading experts on criminal personality profiling and a pioneer of modern criminal investigative analysis. The 'Prologue' tells of the physical breakdown Douglas endured from overwork. This is a shocking and misleading introduction! The nature of violent crime has changed since 1960. The murder rate has gone up and the solution rate had gone down (p.30). Crimes between strangers lack an obvious motive. This need created the behavioral approach to criminal profiling. The Investigative Support Unit assists local police in focusing their investigations. Few towns or counties ever have a serial killer or the experience to learn the techniques for solving rare crimes (p.31). [G. K. Chesterton's "Father Brown" used to solve crimes by getting inside the head of the murderer, a feat that seems illogical compared to "Sherlock Holmes" and other detectives.]

[As I remember it, the "Mad Bomber" was caught when police work matched the handwriting in the letters (p.33) to the employee records. Metesky contracted TB and was then fired for being out sick.] The early chapters tell of Douglas' life, education, military service, and how he joined the FBI. These are colorful stories. Douglas was most successful in clearing bank robberies when he developed a "signature" to link several crimes together (p.86). His background in psychology led him to behavioral science (Chapter 5). After Douglas joined the Behavioral Science group he learned that the academic expert's opinions had limited applicability to law enforcement. [Academics don't get the details known to the police, law officers see a limited area. Only national police can see the whole picture.]

Douglas knew the importance of actual experience (pp.104-105). Chapter 6 tells about a strange murderer who was released against the advice of state psychiatrists (p.107). Chapter 7 tells about other serial murderers. Good psychics can pick up on small, nonverbal clues; keep them away from detectives who know the details (p.151). The following chapters describe the cases that he worked on. Is there a classic profile to a serial killer (p.178)? Can an interrogator educe a confession from a suspect (p.186)? Chapter 11 tells about the Atlanta child murders and the conviction. Chapter 15 tells about the solution to the murder of a two-year old boy. Wrapping the body in a blanket was a clue (p.283).

Serial killers are not legally insane, but not normal either (p.338). Their mental disorders derive from their sexual interests and their character. Insanity means knowing the difference between right and wrong (p.339). Can a brain tumor cause a murderous rage (p.341)? Violent, sexually based serial killers can not be rehabilitated [except by a death sentence]. If they are released on parole they will return to past behavior (p.343). Don't confuse a psychopath with a psychotic (p.345). Killers are created by a bad background (p.357). [Like Ted Bundy?] That seems like an incurable problem given our society. Crime can be lowered by families at the grassroots level (p.374). [Does it takes a village?] The changes in family life since 1960 has effects. [No mention of the National Highway System since the 1950s and the ease of travel for everyone, including serial killers.]
(Review Data Last Updated: 2008-02-17 03:03:54 EST)
09-16-07 5 (NA)
(Hide Review...)  Another great J. Douglas book!
Reviewer Permalink
What can I say other than John Douglas never fails to deliver? This book is a great read, and I loved it!
(Review Data Last Updated: 2008-01-05 08:20:29 EST)
07-10-07 5 1\1
(Hide Review...)  Great inside look
Reviewer Permalink
Given Douglas' background there was little question that he would have a story or two to tell. In Mindhunter you get a glimpse of what it takes to conduct good profiling and what an instrumental tool the profile can be. The book covers some of America's most feared monsters and what role the Behavioral Science Unit played in their capture.

James A. Forrest - Eye of the Storm
(Review Data Last Updated: 2007-09-16 22:16:34 EST)
06-09-07 5 1\1
(Hide Review...)  Glad To Know They're There
Reviewer Permalink
With crimes becoming more and more heinous, it's good to know the FBI has minds like these working behind the scenes. Predicting the profile of criminals behind specific crimes is not only an art, after years of on-the-job training but also a very special gift. A fantastic behind-the-scenes look at crime busting well worth a read.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2007-07-12 06:59:21 EST)
05-29-07 5 2\2
(Hide Review...)  Absolutely Fascinating - A Must for "Criminal Minds" fans!!
Reviewer Permalink
I have been hooked on the TV show "Criminal Minds" lately and was so interested in profiling that I purchased this book. At the time I had no idea that the author was the basis for the main character in my now favorite show. Although undrestandably full of himself, this book gives amazaing insight into the criminal profiling world, discusses many infamous serial killers, and delves into an exciting world of criminal psychology. It has made me want to track down and read every similar book!
(Review Data Last Updated: 2007-07-12 06:59:21 EST)
05-13-07 4 1\2
(Hide Review...)  Mindhunter
Reviewer Permalink
Fascinating insight into the development of profiling. Full of real case studies, it is hard to put down.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2007-07-12 06:59:21 EST)
12-31-06 4 1\1
(Hide Review...)  There Are Evil People
Reviewer Permalink
For those who believe that evil exists in the world and some people should not be allowed to walk among us, this book is for you. John Douglas recounts the formation of the FBI's Investigative Support Unit. He describes some to the nations most notorious serial killers and the story of how they were hunted down and, in most cases, brought to justice.

He offers a great pearl of wisdom near the end of the book regarding crime in America: "I believe that the only chance of solving our crime problem is if enought people want to. More and more courts and more prisons and better investigative techniques are fine, but the only way crime is going to go down is if all of us simply stop accepting and tolerating it in our families, our friends, and our associates."

Douglas is a strong supporter of the death penalty and explains his reasoning several times in the book. The NRA's "Refuse to be a Victim" course recommend's this book for "insight into criminals' minds". If you simply do not want to know about evil people, do not read this book.

The only negative for me was that Douglas has a very high opinion of himself and, in many of the cases, rides in and "solves" the crime with his profile of the killer. Also, not a "gun guy" he gets a reference to S&W and Colt backwards (p. 230) and refers to a .223 Mini-14 as a "high powered hunting rifle" (p. 241).

A worthwhile addition to your library.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2007-07-12 06:59:21 EST)
12-03-06 5 (NA)
(Hide Review...)  This is the Profiling Bible
Reviewer Permalink
John Douglas and Robert Ressler remain the first and the best. They pioneered criminal profiling and their work enabled law enforcement to take a quantum leap in understanding and apprehending violent criminals. This is John Douglas' first profiling book. It should be considered Profiling Serial Killers 101, and any agent of the law who has neglected to read this and Mr. Douglas' other books is doing himself and his profession a dishonor. 30 years after the research was first begun, modern psychology has still not caught up with the cutting-edge criminal psychology in John Douglas' series of books. So if you are a psychology major and you think you know criminals, think again and read the real textbook on criminal behavior, written by a man who knows more about it than anyone on earth. I would encourage all women, especially to read this and the rest of his books. It may seem unlikely, but there is truly no one who has done more for women than John Douglas by exposing the fairly predictable traits of predators. You will never think about anyone the same after learning what his books will teach you. If it were up to me, this would be on the mandatory reading list for every high school senior in America.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2007-07-12 06:59:21 EST)
11-15-06 4 (NA)
(Hide Review...)  A non-fiction book you actually can't put down
Reviewer Permalink
This was a great book. It focused on the cases that helped build the serial crime unit of the FBI and gave some insight into the basis for the breakdown of the social skills of serial killers. While some of the cases were more gruesome than others, it was interesting to see how they were similar and different from one another. This is a non-fiction book, which I don't normally read because I find them boring. But I couldn't put this one down. The only reason I gave it a 4 instead of a 5 was because it didn't really have a story line that was clear. Having said that, I still read the entire thing in days.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2007-07-06 01:47:40 EST)
10-12-06 5 (NA)
(Hide Review...)  a true eye opener for personal safety
Reviewer Permalink
I think what I took away from reading this book was really a lesson in personal safety. I found myself really paying attention to everything going on around me and walking a little bit taller. This isn't for everyone but I found it a critical read living and working in the city at night. I actually was able to identify a bad scene unfolding in front of me and got my feet moving to avoid it. John Douglas presents the facts in a non-alarmist way while still putting great emphasis on what bad dudes are all about. This is a must read for anyone in law enforcement and anyone who likes to gain power through knowledge.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-11-15 02:10:48 EST)
09-29-06 4 (NA)
(Hide Review...)  Good insights into human nature
Reviewer Permalink
This was a very interesting book describing the rise of criminal profiling in the F.B.I. John Douglas pioneered the combination of psychology and crimaal catching which has become so popular today, especially since Thomas Harris' Silence of the Lambs, which showed the public how this new science works (in an exaggerated form, of course). This book details how that science developed, what it's benefits are, and why it should be used, but unfortunately Mr. Douglas doesn't really tell us a whole lot about how exactly it works. He looks at case files, examines autopsy reports, then comes up with a profile of the killer. All of the cases he records in this book are cases he got right (one wonders how many he has gotten wrong, since he mentions having done hundreds and hundreds of cases, and he only mentions a few dozen), yet he never really bridges the gap between case file analysis and criminal profiling. Perhaps he doesn't want us to know, so that criminals cannot use that information to their advantage. If so, he should have explained himself, as the books cover and intro are rather misleading.

Be forewarned that this book is not for squeamish people. He describes murder scenes in detail, leaving little to nothing out, even if things like dismemberment are involved. While not appealing, these descriptions are necessary to really grasp the utter depravity which the criminals he is profiling have fallen into. If you know any good humanists who believe in the inherent good of the human race, this book may cause them to second guess their beliefs.

Douglas makes one point over and over in this book: serial killers are not born, they are made. People are not born with a chemical imbalamce which causes them to go out and kill people. What causes that type of behavior is usually childhood abuse and insecurity. The guys that terrorize the nation are usually guys living in their parent's basements who have no life, because their life was stolen from them in their childhood through the abuse (physical or mental) of parents and relatives. Douglas also points out repeatedly that this does not excuse the killers. They still have free will. They can and do choose not to kill people when they know they will be caught. Psychotic people often seem to really have little choice in what they do, but the typical psychopathic killer knows very well what he is doing and that it is wrong. Douglas does an excellent job of silultaniously arguing that serial killers are a result of their upbringing, and that they consciously choose to do what they know is wrong. This is an important issue in justice, as one can hardly condemn a man for doing something which he has no control over.

Overall grade: A
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-10-13 02:03:38 EST)
05-09-06 3 3\5
(Hide Review...)  I CONFESS! I READ THIS BOOK!
Reviewer Permalink
Hey, I am not looking for a plea bargain here. I plead guilty to reading Mindhunter by John Douglas.

But it's not my fault that I read it. There was a stressor earlier in my life that made me engage in such aberant behavior as reading. And, I kept the book as a sourvenir of my crime, so I could go back and relive the experience. Just like the serial killers in Mindhunter do.

Mindhunter is great pre-reading if you ever plan on being interogated by the FBI. Douglas helps out the criminal-in-training with some fatherly advice: Don't volunteer to help search for missing persons when you are the cause of the disappearance--it raises suspicions. Never visit the grave of your victim at 1 a.m., because the cops might have it staked out. And never, never pick a nickname to use in the taunting letters you send to the cops or media, since you'll have to live with it forever (remember, if was "Son of Sam," not "Son of Beatrice.").

Mindhunter could use a good second editing by a proficient editor. It's amusing enough, but Douglas can suddently lurch off onto another topic in mid-chapter, never to return to the half-told story at hand. Plus, when he actually interviews the worst criminals in prison he only gives up a few quotes about what they said. That's a big miss and we feel cheated.

Mindhunter does not commit the crime of being boring or overly long. It's just guilty not being overly arresting.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-09-30 15:35:36 EST)
05-03-06 3 1\1
(Hide Review...)  Previous book was better
Reviewer Permalink
The book was OK. I felt it was a little repetitive in that cases mentioned in previous books were discussed again. I was expecting new cases. Also the author definately has an ego. Even though he gives praise to fellow law enforcement officers, its always about how brillant he is.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-07-03 22:05:02 EST)
03-26-06 5 1\1
(Hide Review...)  A Look into the Mindhunter Himself
Reviewer Permalink
I thoroughly enjoyed this book! I love how he jumps right into the business of mind hunting as the book opens. Then he backs up for a moment to explain how he got to be in such a position. At this point he tells of his childhood and early adulthood, which is just as interesting as the work that he has poured his life into. As he gains more experience and goes deeper into his field, he takes the reader with him. He tells of mistakes he's made, lessons he's learned, friendships he's gained, and of the respect he's earned. I also appreciated his stories of his family; they added more of a glimpse into his off-duty life. Basically, he is a very entertaining writer, and he writes just enough about the ferocious crimes he's helped solve to explain what happened, who the victim was, and who could have done such a thing.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-07-03 22:05:02 EST)
12-27-05 1 2\4
(Hide Review...)  Not what I bargained for.....
Reviewer Permalink
I read the reviews and read the summary and was very excited to read a graphic informative book on profiling. This book was awful. There was no detail or even a small piece of info. about any of his cases. I agree with previous reviews, he is too cocky. I can't imagine how many cases he has gotten wrong! I was exhausted by chapter two listening to this guys sad life. This is NOT a true crime book. It's a biography of someone feeling sorry for themself. I still have no idea how his cases were solved because he never said....
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-07-03 22:05:02 EST)
12-23-05 3 1\1
(Hide Review...)  Something Missing, Yet An Interesting Read
Reviewer Permalink
John Douglas’s 'Mindhunter' doesn’t deliver the exact goods we hoped for when we grabbed it enthusiastically off the shelf. Chiefly due to the fact that the material is not abundant on insights into psychological profiling; only after four chapters have passed we get to the first step of how the system was established. I’m not saying Mr. Douglas doesn’t know what he’s talking about or anything—he’s utterly qualified and his introduction had been a great asset to the FBI—it’s simply because the book contains more of how he tried to inaugurate the profiling method and many trivial autobiographical anecdotes like how he at one time bedded an older woman etc. Let’s get real; I mean we didn’t buy the book for that, and as many have stated before me I too can relate to the fact that the author’s ego manifested itself more than necessary. That’s not to say it’s devoid of informative elements, but the lack of thematic material and the feeling that John Douglas held many things back cannot be discarded.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-07-03 22:05:02 EST)
12-09-05 5 3\3
(Hide Review...)  An absolute must-read for those interested in investigations and profiling
Reviewer Permalink
Veteran FBI agent John Douglas' memoirs of his service in the Investigative Support Unit, charged with developing profiles of serial killers and other violent criminals, is nothing less than extraordinary. With a proven track record of helping to bring countless murderers to justice through close collaboration with local and state authorities, Douglas played a heavy role in evolving FBI profiling techniques into the refined, respected evaluations that are today accepted as credible testimony in court.

The significant number of cases examined in considerable detail in "Mind Hunter" allow readers to familiarize themselves with the basics of profiling --- a skill that is as fascinating as it is disturbing. Did the way that the killer position the body indicate that he was trying to depersonalize the victim or show a hint of remorse? Does that in turn indicate that this was a planned murder or perhaps a sexual assault gone too far? Does the evidence, in turn, show that this was a murder perpetrated by a deranged man who hates females or rather was it a simple crime of passion? The questions go on and on.

A great book written by a great man.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-07-03 22:05:02 EST)
12-09-05 5 1\1
(Hide Review...)  An absolute must-read for those interested in investigations and profiling
Reviewer Permalink
Veteran FBI agent John Douglas' memoirs of his service in the Investigative Support Unit, charged with developing profiles of serial killers and other violent criminals, is nothing less than extraordinary. With a proven track record of helping to bring countless murderers to justice through close collaboration with local and state authorities, Douglas played a heavy role in evolving FBI profiling techniques into the refined, respected evaluations that are today accepted as credible testimony in court.

The significant number of cases examined in considerable detail in "Mind Hunter" interestingly allow readers to familiarize themselves with the basics of profiling --- a skill that is as fascinating as it is disturbing. Did the way that the killer position the body indicate that he was trying to depersonalize the victim or show a hint of remorse? Does that in turn indicate that this was a planned murder or perhaps a sexual assault gone too far? Does the evidence, in turn, show that this was a murder perpetrated by a deranged man who hates females or rather was it a simple crime of passion? The questions go on and on.

A great book written by a great man.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-01-07 09:43:39 EST)
12-05-05 5 2\3
(Hide Review...)  You will never let them out again
Reviewer Permalink
Read this book and you will never let your daughter, wife, or whomever out of the house again. In the early 80's I actually assisted in finding the bodies disposed of by one of the killers profiled in this book. If you are interested in forensics, getting into the mind of a killer, etc. then read this book. Overlook John Douglas's appearance of can do no wrong and look at what he was dealing with. I know if in his position and reliving much of this as he wrote, my blood pressure would be a bit on the high side.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-07-03 22:05:02 EST)
11-17-05 5 2\2
(Hide Review...)  Excellent
Reviewer Permalink
As a law enforcement employee, I find myself always wanting to know more about forensics, particularly profiling. I've read other John Douglas books and, as usual, this one was superb. Yes, it is more of a research type book than a true crime manual, so it is slower reading, but still one that I couldn't put down for long. And, I'd liked to know more about some of the cases presented. Also, there is a photo about a proactive poster to find "Rosie's killer," yet he doesn't mention Rosie in the book and I'm curious.

I was sad that Douglas and his wife divorced after 22 years of marriage. And, although I can see where to some people, it may seem that he's tooting his own horn, but to me, he's just giving a more indepth background of the subject.

I'd love to attend one of his classes some day. My boss has been to some of Roy Hazelwood's classes and was very impressed.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-07-03 22:05:02 EST)
06-21-05 5 0\5
(Hide Review...)  John E Douglas should teach at Quantico FBI School
Reviewer Permalink
Mindhunter by John E Douglas is an important book for the law enforcement community. The more police understand the criminal mind the more likely they are to make arrests. I was under the constables act while writing traffic tickets at the Sudbury Airport and the place was like the wild wild west. I would have welcomed more police presence while I was on nightshift alone guarding the whole airport by myself. Sometimes an OPP vehicle would drive by and honk hello. Fortunately now there are two security guards at the airport over night. I once caught someone trying to climb the fence to the runway and I held him until police arrived to remove him from the airport. My Supervisor told me "Good job". Mindhunter takes a good look at celebrity stalkers. I once watched a man walk up to then Premier of Ontario Mike Harris and body slam him. The Premiers OPP bodyguards did not respond but I talked to the guy who bodyslammed and said I like the Premier. That seemed to calm him down. I passed on the perps name and what he did to my Supervisor. I got a letter of thank you from Premier Mike Harris who is a great man. The book mindhunter also looks at serial killers. Those serial killers are terrible people. I am a nonviolent person and believe that all humans are sacred. I told my Daughter I would never spank her or raise my voice to her and she said "Thats because you love me right Daddy?" I said thats right. Apparently the Inuit never used to discipline their children. Parents can learn a lot from the Inuits. I plan to buy the other John E Douglas books because I liked Mindhunter so much.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-07-03 22:05:03 EST)
03-29-05 4 4\4
(Hide Review...)  Crime fighters best resource
Reviewer Permalink
First in a three part series describing the creation of the Investigative Support Unit (ISU) of the FBI which profiled cases involving serial killers and rapists. Immaculate detail given for each case as well as `psychological fingerprints' that allow law enforcement to catch most of the suspects. Cases covered include the Green Rivers killer, Susan Smith and the Atlanta Child Murder case. Well written and easily to understand, a real page turner. Not for the faint of heart or anyone offended by graphic descriptions or language.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-07-03 22:05:03 EST)
12-29-04 5 12\13
(Hide Review...)  How to spot dragons before they hatch
Reviewer Permalink
I bought Mindhunter: Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit, for research purposes. I'm writing a book about playing the "good guys" who hunt typical movie slashers, and this book seemed like a good introduction into how the ESCU works to catch the bad guys. What I got was something else entirely.

John Douglas is a very scary man. He's someone who has seen far too many horrific crimes, such that they affect him personally-when his kids scrape their knees, Douglas recounts tales of children torn in half by a murderer. When his wife cuts her finger with a kitchen knife, he points out how the spatter pattern would tell a story about what happened. Ultimately, this sort of exposure leads to a divorce and Douglas is upfront about the damage his profession did to his job.

The book starts out with Douglas in the hospital, the victim of being overworked and without enough manpower to help him. Near death, he recounts the creation of the ESCU and his struggles in making the profiling of serial killers (he invented the term) a legitimate profession. But it does not go into much detail as to how the ESCU works. In fact, it's more about Douglas and about the murderers themselves.

And what a ghastly rogues gallery it is! We have serial killers who invent vigilante groups to cover their tracks, we have killers who like to fly prostitutes out to woodlands and then hunt them down like deer, killers who believe God is telling them to kill people, and killers who strangle, rape, drown, and stab.

I read "Legacy of Blood: A Comprehensive Guide to Slasher Movies" at the same time and found an odd juxtaposition between the two books. Legacy of Blood states that the comfort of slasher flicks is that the bad guy is easily recognized by his disgusting appearance and his sudden attacks, when in reality serial killers often look like normal people and torture their victims for hours.

Not true, according to Mindhunter. Indeed, many of the killers are degenerate slimeballs, incapable of social contact and forced to use blitz-style attacks against the weak and helpless because of their inadequacies. Many have severe stutters, bad acne, or some other disfigurement. Nearly all have been abused in some fashion by their parents.

By now, the serial killer traits are well known: bed wetting, fire starting, and torturing small animals. But Douglas makes it clear that in every case, it's the child's upbringing that so horribly warps them to a life of murder. There are no strong role models to stop these children from turning into monsters; indeed, when children fall into the cracks, serial killers are what sometimes crawl out of them.

Unfortunately, exactly how Douglas comes to his conclusions is a lot like magic. Despite all of his attempts to legitimize what he does, his efforts amount to "and then magic happens!" Then Douglas comes up with a startling accurate profile. He never lets us know when he's wrong. That's a minor quibble with a book that I couldn't put down.

Mindhunter is as much a cautionary tale as it is a woeful biography of Douglas' life. Only one of the victims actually manages to turn the tables on their assailant. And in just about every other case, the killers were on murder sprees that lasted years with dozens of victims. As Douglas puts it, "sometimes the dragon wins."

As an author, this book gave me a host of ideas on how the good guys and the bad guys work. As a citizen of the United States, it gave me a new appreciation for the FBI. As a husband, it gave me a healthy regard for the mentally disturbed. A must read for anyone who wants to understand how to spot the dragons before they hatch.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-05-05 04:01:40 EST)
10-15-04 2 4\10
(Hide Review...)  Don't bother reading this book
Reviewer Permalink
I believe this is my second John Douglas book and although I enjoyed the first one, this one was rather boring. I still haven't finished reading it. Douglas put too much of his own personal life in this book and as always he likes to praise himself , things I don't care for. He jumps around too much in this book and it sometimes get's confusing. If you like John Douglas don't buy this book.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2006-05-01 02:58:43 EST)
02-02-04 5 6\7
(Hide Review...)  Profiles in Courage
Reviewer Permalink
John Douglas is a retired FBI agent who, along with collegues Rob Ressler and several others, developed a new strategy to catch some of America's (and the world's) most deplorable but elusive killers: Profiling. This new behavioral science took a look at a crime scene and the victim her/himself and after piecing these clues along with the clues left at similar murder sites, detectives were able to come up with a "profile" of the perpetrator of the crime. How? Because Douglas and others had gone to the heart of the matter: the criminals themselves. By interviewing them in prison, they were able to see why they killed, what drove them to it, their preferences, backgrounds, and fantasies. Often, the profiles were so eerily accurate that it seemed like witchcraft. Eventually, it was embraced by law enforcement and came to be a most invaluable tool for which all of us in society should be grateful for.
John Douglas describes his beginnings and his own story is as interesting as that of the sick men he later profiles for the reader. There are many insider-anecdotes for us to live vicariously through and plenty of bone-chilling (but not overly-sensationalistic) details of horrific crimes to keep us awake at night.
Luckily, a lot of these guys are locked up for life and some have even kept their dates with death (like America's most charming serial killer, Ted Bundy, who was fried on the electric chair after years of appeals and dozens of murders). But it's not that there aren't still antisocial personalities out there, waiting to explode; the apparent decline in such crime I think is due to men like Douglas, who have made studying these men his cause so that he can stay one step ahead of them. Also, Douglas and his contemporaries worked tirelessly for victim's rights and have made it possible to track cases all over the country via computer so that people can never get away with running away accross the country--to kill anew--ever again. (Bundy did just that, and because things like VICAP were not instituted yet, he went from Washington to Florida and killed more women in the southern state where no one had heard of the vicious killer.)
This book is not for the weak- it will scare you. But it is also an empowering way to look into the minds of the men (it's mostly men who turn into mass killers) who committed the crimes and become aware. I feel I learned how to "defend" myself at least psychologically.
And I consider John Douglas a real hero.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-12-14 05:06:35 EST)
01-27-04 3 5\15
(Hide Review...)  Interesting in places, but often repetitive.
Reviewer Permalink
The reviews below basically sum up the content of the book well, and I have little to add.

However, 2 things really strike me when I read this book and its detailed description of serial killers and rapists.

1. It strikes me that there is something very wrong with the American male psyche. Yes the US is a very large country, but the sheer number of mentally-ill killers and rapists is phenomenal. In his book there is hardly a year that goes by without a man killing, maiming and raping women in a horrific manner. What is most disturbing is that unlike most crimes, these are not committed against family members, or in the heat of passion, drug fuelled, gang related etc. They are so often random acts of violence against women. And Douglas only relates cases in which he was involved in some way. There must be 100s of other serial killers/kidnappers etc not documentated in his book. Why is it so many American men are so unhinged that they are willing to kidnap, mutilate, rape and kill? Why is there so much hate in the Land of the Free?

2. The book really raises questions about the efficacy of the death penalty system. Douglas takes great delight in telling the reader that the sick serial killer is executed, but the fact is, other than satisfying a need for retribution, the death penalty serves no purpose. Most fundamentally, his book shows that the death penalty is in no way a deterrent. Killers in states with the death penalty still commit crimes. Why? Because they (as with all criminals) think they will get away with it. Clearly the state killing killers does not stop others doing the same.

An interesting book which I found disturbing for more reasons beyond just the recounting of some gruesome murders - it actually raises issues that are far more fundamental to the fabric of American society.

(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-12-09 05:41:40 EST)
01-09-04 4 2\3
(Hide Review...)  Great mind
Reviewer Permalink
I think this is an excellent book. I think John Douglas has been a major contributor to the FBI profiling program. I think this book should be used as a guideline to help continue to find and put away the most dangerous criminals in the world. I look forward to reading the follow up to this book.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:34 EST)
10-01-03 1 3\5
(Hide Review...)  Mind-Numbing
Reviewer Permalink
Mr. Douglas should have spent less time thinking and writing about himself, and more time researching the cases he supposedly "worked" on.

He makes numerous errors in the information he provides on various cases. I'll point out just a couple:

At one point he speaks about "Los Angelos' Zodiac Killer" - a small amount of research would have shown that Zodiac was in and around the San Francisco Area (Vallejo, Presido, Lake Berryessa). He also states that New York's Son of Sam spree was exactly one year from July 1976- July 1977, this also is incorrect.

Unless you're looking for a biography of John Douglas, save your money. There are better books out there.

If I had a way to put down 0 stars I would have.

(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:34 EST)
07-30-03 3 5\6
(Hide Review...)  Could Use More Detail
Reviewer Permalink
Mindhunter seemed promising at first, but in the end left much to be desired. The recounting of numerous cases was interesting, but where are the mechanics of the investigation? How were the profiles developed? John Douglas promises a look inside the "elite serial crime unit", but makes you look with one eye closed. He seems to be interested mainly in promoting himself, rather than the profiling science he claims to have developed. And how about failures? Are we to believe that John Douglas always gets his man? Show us some cases where the profile was drastically wrong. Show us what you learned from that. The first step in learning from a mistake is admitting that you made one in the first place. Don't just give us the profiles of past criminals, show us how you came up with it. This is an incredibly fascinating field, and John doesn't seem to be too interested in teaching even the basics of it to the average reader. And especially after he complains in the end of the book about not being able to stop the criminals until it's too late, you would think he would have an interest in educating the public about recognizing certain signs that could indicate a tendency toward future violent behavior. Unfortunately, after reading this book, I have no more useful knowledge than I did before I read it.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:34 EST)
03-21-03 2 7\13
(Hide Review...)  Too little information
Reviewer Permalink
It's a very good thing for the FBI, and the public he was protecting, that John Douglas made a better profiler than he did an author. It's difficult to believe that the authorship was the joint venture it is credited as.

_Mindhunter_ is at its best when Douglas is recounting the interesting details of the cases that he has worked on, and when giving some insight into the way in which criminal profiling developed in FBI history. The middle of the text is a kind of "panoramic true crime" book, narrated by a cop involved in working on a number of fascinating crimes. Unfortunately, a great deal of the rest of the book is devoted to rather dull and poorly-written autobiography, along with Douglas' opinions about criminal justice, capital punishment, psychology, marriage, job stress, and government, usually without giving the reader the benefit of real argument or fact to support his statements.

A couple of warnings: _Mindhunter_ is gruesome. Douglas is not at all interested in preserving the sensibilities of the squeamish. It is also not a "How-To" book on criminal profiling. Don't read this book expecting to come away with a better understanding of how a profile is developed.

More than anything else _Mindhunter_ is a justification of the FBI's use of criminal profiling. Douglas wants to convince the reader that profiling is practical and gives valuable results. Given that as his argument, Douglas doesn't spend any time on the problems with profiling, a topic one might like to see addressed. Those interested in criminal profiling will want to read this first book by the person who defined the practice for the FBI out of historical interest, but shouldn't expect too much from this thick paperback that's thin on real details.

(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:34 EST)
02-17-03 4 5\6
(Hide Review...)  Great book
Reviewer Permalink
Warning: this book is not for the "faint-hearted." The author describes some murder scenes in very graphic detail.

However, if you like crime scene investigation type stuff, I think you'll enjoy this book. Written by the guy who pioneered criminal profiling, he gives the inside scoop on some of the worst serial killings of our time.

It's fascinating how much they can predict about an offender by looking at the crime scene. As Douglas says, to understand the artist you have to study his art. That's the "secret" to successful profiling.

(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:34 EST)
01-09-03 5 4\4
(Hide Review...)  Great book on a "new" science of solving crime.
Reviewer Permalink
Mr. Douglas has done an excellent job bringing the lay-person into the world of FBI profiling. He has succeeded at giving the reader enough knowledge about his profession and techniques that the average Joe may feel like they can go to a crime seen and tell who-done-it. Profiling is clearly a complicated science but the author is able to talk about his experiences and knowledge of certain cases in a way that those not familiar with investigation will be able to understand. Making this a better book is the way he is able to bring the reader into the investigation, by bringing them to the crime scene, seeing the body, etc. through his descriptions. This is must read for anyone interested in crime, investigation or detective work.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:34 EST)
01-03-03 5 2\5
(Hide Review...)  To Understand Mr, Douglas you must have a mature mind
Reviewer Permalink
This was the first of three I read in a row in the order that they were written, It started out slow perhaps to some because he needed to lay down the groundwork to a concept that was being totally rejected by J.E.Hoover and who would not hear of the technique used in criminology. Today it is a required course and Mr. Douglas was never arrogant he was totally exhausted trying to take on so many cases because his methods worked. This book gets so heavily into the psyche of the criminal mind that the average person perhaps cannot grasp the horror of the people John Douglas needed to deal with without much help.If you see the world through rose colored glasses and live in denial you will never understand the books that deal with these kinds of crimes. But you are also making yourself easy prey to the kind of people John Douglas profiles. This man's personal life suffered for the things he saw and the work load that he had to do regardless of Mr. Hoover's rejection of the methods. At least today there are task forces to do the work as a team. He did what he believed in that worked and I lived in VA for 22 years where the FBI Academy takes his methods seriously enough that the police officers take courses there. I have a great deal of respect for John Douglas for following the methods he believed in that he knew worked and fighting to get his methods into criminology. But even if one takes courses there are those that have a gift that makes them exceptional at his methods just as anyone who takes a course in any subject. It takes more than book knowledge one must be able to comprehend with their mind and soul what it is all about to be good at the job of profiling. Mrs symmington
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:34 EST)
10-29-02 5 3\4
(Hide Review...)  Mindhunter will take over your mind...
Reviewer Permalink
Douglas knows his terrain. He is the original profiler. I read this during the height of the Beltway Sniper investigation when profilers were first made into saints and then widely criticized. Well, maybe they are not perfect, but Douglas makes a fascinating case. This book is a bit gruesome, but he is straight forward. He admits his errors and, frankly, one needs to have a strong ego to succeed in his world. He lost his marriage is candid about it. I admire Douglas a great deal. I will be reading as many of his books as I can.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:36 EST)
09-02-02 3 19\28
(Hide Review...)  The Man Is Not All Knowing
Reviewer Permalink
While I admire the authors many accomplishments and can appreciate his contributions to the art of profiling, his ego leaves no room for admitting mistakes. This gives me reason for concern, no one is ever right in every instance no matter how experienced. For instance the William Heirens case which he breezes through with broad strokes doesn't touch on any of the contridictions of this particular case and in the end he writes William off as guilty without ever looking into any other aspects of the crimes and the man who supposedly committed them. I've come to know Mr. Heirens personally and quite frankly Mr. Douglas' treatment of his case was an insult. I was even more disturbed by Douglas' quick defense of Patsy Ramsey (for pay) when everything about Patsy's behavior fits his 'murderer' profile to a "T". I simply refuse to trust someone who believes they're incapable of being wrong.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:36 EST)
08-09-02 2 4\8
(Hide Review...)  All ego and little substance.
Reviewer Permalink
What stands out most in this book is that the author has an ego that is bigger than the state of Texas. Some parts of the book are interesting, although it would be much better if Mr. Douglas could focus more on the functions of the Serial Crime Unit and less on his accomplishments.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:36 EST)
03-18-02 4 3\3
(Hide Review...)  A great read for the true crime buff
Reviewer Permalink
John Douglas is truly a genius crime-solver. I was in awe of his ability to profile a criminal and his track record of solving cases. He goes into great detail of crimes that stood out most during his career and it is truly a fascinating read.

The only downfall of the book is that he dives into his personal background and life a little too much, in my opinion. I would rather that space be filled with more information on crimes and profiling (hence sticking with the title and implication of the book) rather than the author's college escapades and failing marriage.

Aside from that, this book provides a fascinating window into the world of criminal profiling.

(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:37 EST)
02-04-02 3 6\6
(Hide Review...)  The Amazing Douglas!
Reviewer Permalink
This is the first of Douglas' books I've read. After having read Robert Ressler's 2 books, I found this to be more of the same serial killer profiles, with a different spin on the same cases that Ressler reviews in his books. "Mind Hunter" has more of Douglas' personal & professional journey woven into his case studies. It's somewhat boastful of his accomplishments, and, at times, self congratulatory, but still very interesting. The book achieves a good level of insightfulness into the minds and psychopathology of the serial killers profiled. The disappointment lies, however, in that Douglas casually glosses over exactly how his profiles are derived and constructed from the particular facts of each case. Little to no analytic methodology is presented. (I mean, it's not as if readers are gonna run out and take his job away from him if he reveals too many tricks of his trade). In fact, Douglas presents his ability to profile as if he's a magical psychic, pulling personality theories out of his hat. Low and behold! - once the investigations are complete, he ends up with an accurate profile, and people are amazed by him! Nonetheless, it's an enjoyable and very interesting book. If you're intersted in criminal profiling, it's worth a read, but it's not as in-depth as say, Michaud and Hazelwood's "The Evil that Men Do".
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:37 EST)
12-17-01 4 3\3
(Hide Review...)  Not as good as Anatomy of Motive
Reviewer Permalink
This book is really an autobiography of the author. I liked it. It was well written, colorful, kept your attention, and was truthful, which is more admirable than jsut some guy blowing his own horn. Still, I would honestly say that Anatomy of Motive is far superior to this book. The writings in this book are more personal, and some may say that is better, but I like cold hard FACTS, which is why I read this stuff in the first place. Its cool to read about someone that is a pioneer in their field, but I would rather read about catching the bad guys.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:38 EST)
11-25-01 2 5\5
(Hide Review...)  Underwhelming journey through the megalomaniac mind
Reviewer Permalink
Many of the reviews here aptly point out that the bulk of this book is Douglas' effort to pat himself on the back and inflate his work without really saying much about it. It is more a capitalization on the public interest in profiling than it is a helpful tool for understanding what the FBI does and why.

Thankfully, there are books out there that do just that. Douglas' book is valuable as a quick skimmer to familiarize yourself with some prominent cases while sitting in an airport lounge. On the whole, the biographical bits were wholly unnecessary. The structure of the book was a string of anecdotes that only served to confirm Douglas' prowess and importance ("He is white, and inadequate" yawn). He dodges in and out of cases, and his attempts to make a case for the importance of his work are never well argued (although I agree it IS important).

Essentially, every anecdote is designed to show us that the person that was caught matched the profile, yet the book oddly talks very little about profiling in any significant way.

He pretty much comes and and says how highly he regards himself. When talking about his underlings, he refers to them as "stars in their own right." That characterizes much of the book: John Douglas thinks he's very much a star, and the only significance of everything else is to confirm that.

(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:38 EST)
09-22-01 4 13\17
(Hide Review...)  Biographic story of John Douglas and the Serial Crime unit
Reviewer Permalink
REFERENCED BY CANDICE DELONG'S RECENT BEST SELLER:
I read this book because of a reference in the book by Candice DeLong called: "Special Agent : My Life on the Front Lines As a Woman in the FBI". In Ms. Delong's book she made many references to work that John Douglas' group did and cited this book many times. This book gave me further insight into how the Serial Crime unit evolved.

ONE THING THE BOOK DIDN'T DO, WAS EXPLAIN HOW THEY CAME UP WITH A PROFILE:
Many cased were cited in this book and the profiles that were tied to them. However, still after reading this book, I did not come away with an understanding on how they established that the potential culprit was early 20's, did not know the victim, drove a VW beetle (this can't be too great for sales), lived with his Mom and used to be a bed wetter. I can hypothesize, how this was derived, but the book only gives you that much. I imagine many hours of correlating details of solved crimes helps provide the statistical information, they use. This data I'm sure is also closely guarded. One thing they did state was some serial killers were quite bright and no doubt this date could be used as a blueprint to hide your identity. Thus, the need not to publish it. Ironically too many serial killers, were police buffs. All the more reason, not to share it here as well.

JOHN DOUGLAS COVERS MANY HIGH PROFILE CASES IN THIS BOOK BUT, IT IS MORE A BOOK ABOUT HOW THE THE SERIAL CRIME UNIT AND HOW THEY LEARNED SOME OF THE TECHNIQUES THEY USED.
Ironically, common sense prevails. Why not ask some of the perpetrators now that have nothing to lose and a lot of time on their hands. The unit begins interviews with some of the more nototious killers to see what their thoughts were when they committed the crimes they did. As predicted some offenders were less than candid, but even in their lies some insight was gained.

THE LOGIC AND STRUCTURE OF MANY SOLVED INVESTIGATIONS WAS DETAILED. Here you can see where involving this unit may be able to save precious time. From evidence gathering, questioning and staking out various locations associated with the crimes. There is a pattern we all follow. As humans, we are all creatures of habit and compulsion. Those of us driven to crime and horrible acts of violence even more so. John Douglas discusses this in many situations they dealt with.

IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A BOOK THAT:
Covers many high profile cases in broad strokes and deals with the logic behind profiling, while also
showing the people and the process involved in building a department devoted to this, this is the book for you.

BUT, IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR
Detail case specifics and how all that profiles are generated, this is not it.

JOHN DOUGLAS DOES A NICE JOB WRAPPING UP THE DETAILS OF HIS LONG CAREER AND A PART OF IT HE FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT. We should all be so lucky to have an opportunity to shape the world around us as he has. He has paid the price with health and family issues, but the outcome, I'm sure he would never change. Bravo.

(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:38 EST)
08-30-01 4 1\2
(Hide Review...)  Good Read
Reviewer Permalink
John Douglas is a true professional in the field of criminal profiling and does a good job of sharing his cases, experiences and expertise to the reader. The author makes you feel like you could conduct profiling yourself and you often find yourself say "that makes sense" as you cruise through the pages. Anyone interested in law enforcement, especially investigating serial crimes should read this book. RECOMMENDED.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:39 EST)
06-29-01 1 9\14
(Hide Review...)  Is this a biography of the author ??!?!
Reviewer Permalink
My God, talk about wanting to throw a book against the wall. I wish the author would shut about how wonderful, elite, fantastic, etc, he thinks he is, and write more about actual case work. What a self-indulgent load of you-know-what most of this book is. I picked up to read casework on serial killers, and ended up getting a stomachful of more-than-I-care-to-read than the minutia of his biography. I see he has written a number of other books that I would otherwise find interesting. I'm just afraid of more crap like this one.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:39 EST)
03-07-01 5 3\4
(Hide Review...)  Amazing!!!!
Reviewer Permalink
This is a wonderful book. If you're interested in the Thomas Harris novels, then this is a book for you. It's insightful and grabs your attention from the first page. The book is littered with stories of killers and why they kill. It also gives a view of a man consumed by the daily grind of catching killers.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:39 EST)
01-18-01 5 1\2
(Hide Review...)  The title says it all.
Reviewer Permalink
This is one of the best books on the subject. I do not mind the personal tidbits about the authors life, because this type of work at some point can get to you and by letting us into the minds of the killers he shows us the damage is not only to the victims and the victims family but to anyone the killer's life touches. Excellant read from a pro.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:39 EST)
11-27-00 5 5\5
(Hide Review...)  We thoroughly enjoyed this book--
Reviewer Permalink
My son and I listened to the unabridged book-on-tape, and I find myself disagreeing with some of the reviewers. We completely enjoyed this inside look into profiling and behavioral science. Mr. Douglas does have a background -- a BA and an MA, I believe -- in psychology, plus a world of experience he's developed over the years. And he certainly does explain how he reaches many of his conclusions -- including the "stutterer" one -- explaining that he was sure the perp had a disability of some kind, and then going through how he eliminated other possible disabilities. And he comes to the knowledge that the perpetrator was black (in the Atlanta child murders case, I assume) because of long experience that tells us that serial killers (who seldom are black) don't cross racial lines.

Yes, this book also contains a life story, but we found that interesting too. And we enjoyed being able to begin figuring things out along the way, from the principles and clues he provides. Perhaps this book might not be satisfying to someone who already knows a lot about the subject, but we really enjoyed it.

(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:40 EST)
06-03-00 2 4\7
(Hide Review...)  Highly Overrated
Reviewer Permalink
The positive reviews here and the promise of a good story enticed my purchase of the tapes. Unfortunately, this title was very disappointing. I found the reading insipid relative to the several stories of brutal serial killings. One must be quite patient listening to the author's personal history, which is not entirely relevant. It's a wonder the bad grammar passed the editors--or is this perhaps self-published?
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:40 EST)
05-29-00 3 7\8
(Hide Review...)  More of a bio than "inside the FBI's.."
Reviewer Permalink
John Douglas spends a lot of time talking about the cases and the workload, and his criss-crossing the country. I wish it went more into the details of each crime, spending a little more time on the details. I began Mind Hunter expecting a lot more than I received. The book is interesting but it really lacks insight as to how the FBI actually arrived at their profiles. Most of the time a quick summary of the crime would be given then the author would describe the killer without ever explaining how he came to the conclusions he did, and take credit for solving it. It left me with more questions then answers, and knowing a lot more about John Douglas than profiling. It's only 384 pages so its worth reading to the end, just know it's more about John Douglas the the "inside" story.
(Review Data Last Updated: 2005-11-20 13:58:41 EST)
  
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